Legislature(2001 - 2002)
04/30/2002 01:40 PM Senate L&C
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 472-PAWNBROKERS/SECONDHAND DEALERS
CHAIRMAN STEVENS announced HB 472 to be up for consideration.
MS. LAURA ACHEE, staff for Representative Joe Green, sponsor of
HB 472, said that he has prepared a committee substitute that she
would explain.
She explained that there is a statute right now that requires
anyone who buys a secondhand article with the intent of reselling
it or takes a secondhand article as collateral on a loan, not
including banks, to keep a record of every single article they
take in including the name of the person that they purchased it
from. The bill lists what the articles would be rather than
saying any article - like articles with a serial number, article
with a resale value greater than $75 or article presented in a
lot of 10 or more, which would cover CDs and DVDs.
The biggest change in the bill is that in addition to keeping the
records now the secondhand dealers and contractors who conduct
these transactions would have to provide weekly reports to their
local police agency or to the state troopers if they are outside
of a municipality. The version that passed out of the House has
every two weeks for reporting. After speaking with law
enforcement personnel, Representative Green felt that every two
weeks was not frequent enough to track stolen articles.
Representative Green wants to make it clear that the
intent of this bill is not as some people have supposed
- that we found that there's a big problem with
dishonest shopkeepers out there. In fact, that's not
the problem. We've found every shopkeeper we've spoken
to has been very honest and upfront about the fact that
they check I.D. s and they don't want stolen property
in their stores. There are plenty of theft laws on the
books that will help law enforcement shut down any shop
keepers that were known to be taking in hot items and
fencing them. What we're trying to do is make it easier
for police to get the items that are stolen back to the
people to whom they belong and to also have a record of
folks who are repeatedly stealing and selling items to
be used during prosecution.
She said the next change from the version that passed out of the
House is in Section 6, the property-holding requirement. The
House version says that pawn brokers have to hold items for two
weeks before they could sell them allowing them time to correlate
the reports of items taken in with the reports of stolen items.
The CS backs the holding period down a little bit to 72 hours
from the time that the report is submitted so they would have to
hold from the time they take it in until 72 hours after the
report is submitted. They have included secondhand dealers in the
holding provisions.
The next change is in part (b) of this section where it's made
really clear that in the case of a pawned item, the person who
pawned it may redeem that item within the hold period and not be
held to the hold period. AS 08.76.760 has an exemption. In Alaska
especially a lot of people own shops that cover a range of
services like secondhand dealers, pawn brokers, thrift stores,
etc. and they want to make it clear that if a dealer purchases an
item from another dealer, purchases it at auction or purchases it
wholesale, are not subject to the reporting laws, because they
are not items that are likely to be stolen or if they are
secondhand goods that come from another dealer, they're presumed
to have been reported in the original transaction.
Another change in the CS is in section 1, the House version,
which said that they would record 'items' that fall in these
categories. The CS makes it clear that it refers to secondhand
items.
SENATOR AUSTERMAN asked if they know what percentage of pawned
secondhand items are hot.
MS. ACHEE replied that she didn't know that.
SENATOR AUSTERMAN moved to adopt the CS to HB 472 for discussion
purposes. There were no objections and it was so adopted.
SENATOR AUSTERMAN said he assumed there was a big problem with
secondhand stores that requires these reporting restrictions.
MS. ACHEE explained that this bill came from the fact that the
Municipality of Anchorage has a law that requires pawn brokers to
make weekly reports and it has been helpful in tracking stolen
items. They have a constituent who had a number of items stolen
and the Anchorage Police Department checked the local stores and
couldn't find them. They then thought the items had gone out of
Anchorage to the Valley and sent an officer out once or twice to
check the records and all of the stores. Ultimately, the items
were never recovered even though they had an idea of where they
went. This constituent thought a statewide reporting system would
improve the process. In Anchorage, alone, there is one police
officer whose entire job is checking pawn shops and secondhand
stores looking for stolen items.
SENATOR TORGERSON said the only part of the bill he doesn't like
is the reporting every week to the Police Department. He asked
why they can't just go in and inspect the records, which existing
statute allows them to do.
MS. ACHEE replied that he was correct about the records already
being open to law enforcement agencies, but there is a manpower
issue and they don't have the time.
SENATOR TORGERSON asked how many pawnbrokers and secondhand
stores are in Alaska that are required to report. Another
question he has was what happens when you have the municipal
police and the borough state troopers who both need it then. It
sounds to him like it's a never-ending thing where everyone needs
to report.
MS. ACHEE replied that with regard to reporting, it would be to
the presiding jurisdiction. And if an item has to be recorded
when it's taken in and that's the only time it has to be
recorded. The volume of information going to police departments
isn't going to change if you're reporting it weekly versus
reporting it every two weeks.
It's going to be the same number of transactions being
recorded. It's just how frequently the reports come in.
In a situation, especially with hold requirements that
in the version that came out of the House were
identical to the reporting times, it gives the law
enforcement no time to correlate their reports for
stolen property with these reports of items that have
been pawned or sold to see if any matches occur unless
the frequency is greater.
SENATOR TORGERSON said he understands the situation, but he
thought it was an over-burdened position to put pawn brokers and
secondhand dealers in when their books are already open for
inspection. "Also, this information is going to pile up in a
corner somewhere. I can't think they're going to have a dedicated
person look through this stuff to see if somebody's serial number
or item shows up on a list. Maybe they will."
MR. NORM BLAKELY, Alaska Trading and Loans on the Kenai
Peninsula, said he had some questions about this bill. He
voluntarily does this in his shop on the Peninsula for about
three or four months and finally their officer told them that
they just didn't have the manpower to take care of the reports
and go through them. So they no longer needed to do it. He said
that his was the only shop that volunteered to do the reports and
that there were others that didn't. He didn't see how this would
work.
MR. BLAKELY also said that most of the time what happens in these
cases that he can see are family disputes. He thought they should
think this bill through and make it a little more equitable for
everyone.
SENATOR TORGERSON asked if he gave his information to the
troopers as well as the City of Soldotna.
MR. BLAKELY replied that Chief Gifford was in the loop they were
working with and the troopers were supposed to come by and pick
them up, but they didn't have the time to do it. Nobody came by
to pick the reports up and it was time consuming to do.
LIEUTENANT JULIE GRIMES, Department of Public Safety, said she
thought the bill was "a step in the right direction."
People who are victims of theft would benefit from the
way this bill is written and law enforcement will
definitely have an easier time in doing their job
identifying stolen property that has been pawned and
then trying to get it back to the rightful owner, but
more importantly actually identifying who has the
professional stolen items and trying to make arrests
and do a good case investigation. We do believe it is a
step in the right direction.
SENATOR TORGERSON asked if his concern about the volume of
information that might be coming was a concern of hers.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied:
I'm not going to represent that we have scads of
resources that could be dedicated to it right now, but
at the same time, it is not something that will sit in
the corner. I understand your concern. The information,
for instance, I think there's four or five shops in
Mat-Su Valley, the information that they would provide
would come in electronically or by hard copy paper to
the trooper office and it would be - it's not a big
chore to categorize and file it - and those troopers
working burglaries would certainly have access to that.
We'd be going through it. When you've got a case going
and you're trying to determine where the property might
be, that's just part of your investigation - is to
check that stuff. So, it's certainly not going to go
away. That information is real valuable and it would be
attended to by the troopers or other law enforcement
departments that have active…
SENATOR TORERGSON said that it is a class A misdemeanor if the
guy knowingly violates that section. "I just have a problem with
that."
CHAIRMAN STEVENS said the bill says a lot of the recording will
now be done by data based management and asked if that would help
them access the information with less manpower. "Do you envision
developing some sort of data based management for that?"
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied that right now the Department doesn't
have the resources to actually create a state wide information
management system, but it is something they could work towards in
the future. "For now we would probably use just a hard copy file
and a trooper actually reviewing those files looking for his
evidence."
SENATOR AUSTERMAN asked how she anticipated the interaction
between the Anchorage Police Department and the Alaska State
Troopers.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied that she didn't think the interaction
between the law enforcement agencies was a problem. Currently,
property crimes investigators all over the state network with
each other, because they realize how quickly stolen items can
leave their city and be pawned in another city.
SENATOR AUSTERMAN asked if she knew the percentage of hot items
that is involved.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied that she couldn't give him an accurate
answer.
SENATOR LEMAN said it would be to everyone's advantage to have a
web page with the standardized format so people could submit this
information electronically.
I can't imagine getting all this hard copy…I think
you'd be better off to pay the secondhand dealers in
the pawn shops $1 if they submit a report
electronically according to the right format to provide
an incentive to them and be money ahead.
He said he knows they mean well.
CHAIRMAN STEVENS said he thought that was a valid point.
MS. ACHEE said she thought Representative Green would whole
heartedly support a data based system, but this just isn't the
right fiscal year to be asking for more money.
SENATOR AUSTERMAN said he didn't see where it says they need to
maintain the records for one year and it talks about a seven-day
period. He asked if that was for the new items.
MS. ACHEE replied that new items are not explicitly stated, but
that's not the intent, which is that only the new records since
the last report need to be recorded. She said that could be
clarified.
MR. BLAKELY commented that he had no problem with Representative
Green's concern that families get their property returned to
them, but if then they need to think about restitution for the
people who have purchased the property. This has been a real
problem that should be addressed.
MS. ACHEE responded that without this bill, if an individual
finds an item in a store that they can legitimately claim belongs
to them and the police recover it, they'll get it back and the
shop keeper will unfortunately be out the money. Under this bill
the shop owner could bring a civil action against the person who
took it and gave him their name and age.
SENATOR AUSTERMAN said he was having a hard time with this bill
especially if it stays in the same form it's in now.
I think it steps too far out on the limb of creating
new laws that create new work that are a burden on
everybody. Unless they can show me that this is really
a big problem that we need to address through creating
new laws, I'm going to have a hard time moving this out
of committee.
CHAIRMAN STEVENS said they would hold the bill.
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